came to pick me up in his car. Free Pass : Professional 501(c)3 Pastoral Improper Judgement Permit Provided? He fell drunk on the floor in his home. The best thing for him and those in his orbit, his incarceration. To an Alky, the Constitutional Right to My Next Drink cannot be infringed in any way. Staying in it helps no-one, including himself. That was the purpose of our Parents Concerned ministry. Sproul, Jr. has a serious drinking problem; Are you speaking of recovered alcoholics that you know that support patriarchy? In our former church, which I understand was similar in many ways to RC Jrs church, it involved either calling a congregational meeting (that would be to talk about the situation before taking it to excommunication) and then acting when the congregation was gathered together for worship (the cynical part of me wants to say, The more the merrier but it probably has something to do with holiness and ceremony), an elder would read out a statement and pronounce the excommunication. I was touched by Friends story earlier about how their church and clergy loved a woman alcoholic member who wasnt clean and sober, but was a vital, loving member of their community. I am not the least bit surprised by this [RC JR using an adultery site] as its commonplace in alcoholic behavior and something that is covered in treatment and on-going recovery programs. responded to your comment with a quote from RC Sproul, but the comment is not yet visible, probably because of the words Sproul used. SEE? I dont really remember seeing anyone in this thread say they are anti- treatment. It certainly was not just a church thing, it was a cultural thing. She just soaked up the love in the very back and left each time. If we were discussing instead your ex-pastor, I might imagine that those who surround him would be enabling him and calling it support, as an extension of the culture of the place where they seemed to see nothing wrong with unconditionally supporting their Megans list friend. has been working up to his felonious status for a long time. Unfortunately, I am in a lot of pain and maybe looking at surgery so I am having trouble keeping up with things. Jr. sounds like hes running a cult, not a Presbyterian Church. It is natural for a father to want to protect a child from the consequences of their actions but at some point in time when the child keeps doing this the parent has let them experience the consequences. If he is putting his son into jobs in ministry (which is my understanding, correct me if I am wrong), he is enabling him in some way. What a terrible experience to go through so young. Decades later, he founded Reformation Bible College to give students a foundation in God's Word during those formative years. Why not? Im not seeing how sitting in a church building once a week listening to sermons treats things such as depression or alcoholism. Thus securing a good and firm foundation, perhaps? ridiculous with devastating consequences. This is what Barbara posted to H.U.G. You can read our explanation here: Velour wrote: @ Velour: It is difficult to watch someone you care about who seems bent on a path of self-destruction, and be helpless to do anything but pray. After the alky refuses to cooperate, which most drunkards do (sorry for substituting the Dark Ages biblical term), what then? Once again, you are a bit strong. Youre too quick to take offense because youre reading things that havent even been said. The recidivism statistics bear this out, and the treatment programs are just as disappointing. Other people were subjected to the same treatment. Velour was being hostile to a few people up thread such as Barbara and Julie Anne, and later, to me. We don't know the extent to which RC2 family have tried to get help for him, but RC1 is a faithful brother of all of us in Christ. What if we were discussion a DUI as the culmination of years of heavy drinking on the part of your former pastor? And I have found their parents, spouses or girlfriends (depending on their marital status), to be enablers, capable of cover-ups and lying. Part of the problem is that anxiety which found its start in a serious situation, like my daughters brain tumor, leads to the body getting used to being anxious. In fact just this evening I went to mass followed by a going away party for our young and much beloved assistant pastor (who is being assigned by the Jesuits to another location much to all our distress). I did check the link that H.A. He excommunicates entire families for the alleged sins of just one family member. Some might call it being accountable. H.A. He needs to make amends for that. I have said nothing medical at all in any way. 2. I have a common interest with one individual vintage automobiles. Categories: Presbyterian Church in the United States of America Ministers | Altamonte Springs, Florida | Sanford, Florida | Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania | Biblical Scholars | Teachers | Authors | Broadcasters | Editors | Notables, WIKITREE HOME | ABOUT | G2G FORUM | HELP | SEARCH. I am sorry that you do not feel that you got any good help for your situation. Addictive behavior can certainly impact the mind and body, so that the medical community has to eventually treat the consequences of alcohol abuse. About the three teens I mentioned: The other one has been deeply depressed and suicidal for at least a year. Too many churches are already a breeding ground for guilt, shame, coercion, manipulation, etc. I dont recall ever treating Velour in that fashion. One of the grandparents of my generation has relatively early dementia-the same thing that killed his mother and the same disease that has now stricken him. [1]. Joining another church across town was never a good enough reason. Most, not all, have btdt with the Church. write such a tribute about his wife and marriage? It got depressing, I have lost well over 200 of the people I worked with, most of them younger than I am. Very well stated. Sadly, we smelled the booze again and he admitted that he was choosing to drink. I agree that he should be put out based on his ongoing chronic abuse behaviors, some behaviors that have not been mentioned here (including his abuse of alcohol which has put kids in harms way). Secondly, I am unaware of any Biblical passage that says that having depression is a sin or is worthy of removing someone from fellowship. Theres even less agreement on the extend to which an alcoholic is responsible for his behaviour whilst drunk. Bridget wrote: also has some unhealed issues, and perhaps might be from an alcoholic family or otherwise dysfunctional family. The problem drinker, on the other hand, CAN help it. An inexpressible blessing. My FIL was a terrible abusive drunk, he eventually got sober at age 54. But I would have thought a non-alcoholic can always go without alcohol: that is, its an issue of choice and control. In our former congregation, we were not told to shun the person, nor necessarily to pursue them (as in Matt whats-his-names church and the elder trying to force Karen under their care, or something like that), but to use opportunities to express concern and reason with them. It lets him off the hook for all the spiritual abuse and leaves him free to weasel his way back into ministry once the dust settles. RC Jrs message has long been that heavy drinking is manly and if you want to be a real man (like him?) "I try, like most of us, not to be easily offended. @ Velour: Scroll down to the bottom of the post. Would you please, so as not to cause me to stumble, stop suggesting that it is wrong to drink alcohol in moderation, or that drinking alcohol in moderation somehow is a failure to love my brothers? Velda Deene Strasner Sproul Obituary With heavy hearts, we announce the death of Velda Deene Strasner Sproul of San Angelo, Texas, who passed away on January 24, 2021 at the age of 88. If that is the case, the person who says, Aw, come on. Im not uncomfortable with Barbs rules. May I suggest that we all pray for people who are in despair? Velour wrote: And looking at this from a third angle: Even if the person may have been hurt they may still be absolutely correct and objective in what they say. But I have a lot of sympathy for his kids/family, and hope he gets help for their sakes. And I know about substance abuse. They abuse the gift of grace, and on top of that, they model that abusive behavior to people who lack discernment. But unless you are the owner of the blog its not okay for you to tell someone else to stop responding to you. Can you imagine for one second the shame and embarrassment of having everyone know that your mom is a fall down drunk? Being a parent of an alcoholic or drug abuser is scary. Thanks, Dee and Deb, for all you do on TWW. The point being, that when someone is in a position of authority over others, even adult to adult, and they use that authority to take advantage of another person (in this case, a policeman husband and his non-law enforcement wife), that is a super predator. Hi Julie Anne, No, I saw your list. the worst thing Ive heard is that the leaders of the accountability groups go running to the pastor with all the details and what is admitted to in the group comes back later to haunt the person if they attempt to leave the Church. I have been to bars with friends and had tea and nobody cares. But when we have followed the path of destruction he has left in his wake for decades, I hope you can understand why our first reaction was not Get treatment for RC2. Its just that our first thought is for his past victims and future victims if he is allowed to continue. telling me that I cant comment to people who are expecting replies from me isnt ok. But to take that info and post it here? I love them dearly & only wish they could have the love & grace that you & your church offered to her. Apologies for hitting to soon and posting. But yesterday I had to go back and let them look at a post-op problem that has arisen, and the delightful surgeon in the office who saw me was a man. If I bailed them out every time they got into trouble theyd never learn that their bad choices have bad consequences. Velour wrote: 104:1415). I have since removed the errant sentence from Valeries comment above. is someone who could benefit from Al-Anon too, for the family and friends of problem drinkers. The writer Anne Lamott, a recovering alcoholic, writes about going to a black church in Northern California when Anne was not sober. Sure enough, car driving very slowly and deliberately down the wrong side of the street. She said, he needs to be born again as this persistent pattern of behaviour shows he is NOT regenerate and is NOT in Christ at all. 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